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Directory:Bedini SG:Replications:PES:Sterling Allan:Data:Exp10.2 Ohms v Amps v RPM Chart

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You are here: PES Network > Main Page > There was an error working with the wiki: Code[1] > Directory:Bedini SG:Replications > Directory:Bedini SG:Replications:PES > Directory:Bedini SG:Replications:PES:Sterling Allan > Directory:Bedini SG:Replications:PES:Sterling Allan:Data > Exp. 10.2


Exp. 10.2 Ohms v Amps v RPM and Multiple Stable Rotation Curves

Image:Ohms v Amps v RPM SDA Bedini SG Exp10 thumbnail.gif

'Experiment 10.2 from Sterling D. Allan's Replication of John Bedini's "Directory:Bedini SG"'

Purpose : To look at the ohms-per-amps curve more closely in the region below 1k ohms where wheel rotation is observed, so as to find the ideal resistance to use for the ideal combination of high rotation speed with low input current and relatively high output current.

Summary of Finds : Modifying the ohms modifies the rotation speed as well as the input-output current and relationship. The surprise is that there are several regions in which two stable rotation speeds and output-input current sets exist, and their progression from low to high ohms creates a series of overlapping curves that do not have the same shape. There are also some "phantom" stable spots where the wheel slows in its acceleration/deceleration but does not stay there as a steady place. These "phantom" regions are consistent with an extrapolation of the curve before or after in the lower or higher ohms data.

Image:Ohms v Amps v RPM SDA Bedini SG Exp10 400.gif

Experimental Set-up

Image:SDA Bedini SG 7charging one input.jpg

I had one 6V 4.2Ah/20h battery on input with 7 batteries on output in parallel being charged. There was no trickle charger on the input battery during this experiment. The only changes were coming from the gradual discharge of the input battery and the even more gradual charge of the 7 output batteries.



Excel Spreadsheet of Data Taken


Image:Ohms v Amps v RPM SDA Bedini SG Exp10 800.gif

(There was an error working with the wiki: Code[2] for 1200px enlarged version with higher resolution)

Chart Explanation

Ohms : The Ohms grid is across the bottom in logarithmic scale, marked 0, 100, 200, up to 900 on the far right.

RPM : RPM grid is on the right, and ranges from 0 to 160 revolutions per minute. Each main horizontal line is 20 rpm. The first RPM set climbs dramatically from 95 rpm to ~175 rpm as the resistance increases from 10 to ~200 ohms. The second set begins at around 110 ohms and drops from ~120 to 105 rpm at ~145 ohms, then climbs gradually to 110 rpm as the ohms increase to ~270. Between ~112 and ~200 ohms, there are two stable speeds at which the wheel spins. Let it start from near stand still, and it accelerates until it reaches the lower of the two speeds, where it will stay steady as long as the battery is connected and stays within a certain range of voltage. Then give the wheel an added push by hand, and it then achieves the second, higher speed, where it stabilizes and stays steady.

Amps : The amps grid is on the left and goes from 0 to 0.5 amps. The input amps drop from around 0.5 amps at 10 ohms down to about 10 amps at 900 ohms. The first set, from 10 ohms to ~200 ohms drops linearly. But the next four sets do not drop, linearly but have a curving shape as one set ends and another begins. The pattern is not always the same either. The Output amps are represented toward the bottom of the chart, and likewise are not linear. The second through fifth output curves are nominally symmetrical to the corresponding input curves. The first input amps curve begins low, then increases, then decreases, while the remaining output curves start higher and end lower.

% Efficiency : The bottom set of curves is a plot of output amps divided by input amps to give an "efficiency" ratio. The grid is illegible, and should have been plotted lower than it was so as to not cross over into the other plots. The scale goes from 6% with the first small horizontal line, up to 20% at the "0" marking for amps and RPM, and higher for the higher percentages, impinging into the other data. The highest input-output ratio was observed at the highest resistance, which also produced the lowest output amps and lowest rpm. The lowest ratio was observed at the lowest resistance. But the ratios between those to points is anything but linear, and resembles the same sort of pattern seen in the other plots.


Nov. 10, 2004

[I composed the following yesterday, prior to pulling quite a bit more data. It's a good start, but much more needs to be be written about the various effects discovered.]

I'm doing a plot right now on my Bedini SG, increasing resistance by small increments between 28 ohms and a few hundred ohms. I'm seeing some extremely unusual characteristics unfold. At first, I thought I was getting a jumping up and down from one range of resistance to another, but then, upon further investigation and testing, I realized that at the lower resistances there are actually two stable speeds to which the wheel will stabilize. For example, in at122 ohms, three is a stable speed at 159 rpm, as well as at 117 rpm. If I slow the rotor to a near stop, it accelerates to 117 within about three or four minutes. If I speed the rotor a little beyond 117 rpm, is slows back down to 117 within a minute or two. If I give it a little more of a nudge, it then accelerates up to 159 rpm. I tried finding a possible third stable range, manually spinning the wheel up to over 300 rpm, but it slowed to 159 within about four minutes.

I've not yet characterized where this dual speed range begins and ends. Nor have I found a third speed, though I'm guessing that there is a smaller window where the third speed shows up.

At 339 ohms, I can only get one speed: 105 rpm. I sped it manually to over 300 rpm, but it slowed within four of five minutes to 105 rpm. Same thing for starting it from a near stand-still. It accelerated to 105 rpm, though that acceleration takes about ten minutes.

The input/output amps efficiency is quite a bit higher for the lower rpm. At 122 ohms, the 152 rpm input is 0.315 amps, while the output is 0.04 amps, for 12.7% efficient. The 117 rpm input is 0.275 amps, while the output is 0.05 amps, for an 18.2% efficiency.

Generally, it is looking like the input-output efficiency increases with the higher resistance. At 560 ohms, there is a stable rotation at 77.5 rpm, which gives an input current of 0.08 amps, with an output current of 0.02 amps, for an efficiency of 25%.

At 25 ohms, the input draws 0.48 amps, while the output is 0.065 amps, for an efficiency of 13.5%. The wheel rotates at 83rpm there.

I notice that in the situations (ohms setting) where there is only one running speed, that the output amps reading remains constant even when I manually speed up the wheel, while the input current increases proportionate to the speed of the wheel.

Additional Data and Chart

On Nov. 12, two days after the previous data was taken (with the batteries having two additional days of charging in the interim), I took an additional data set at various points through the chart, hoping to fill in some question marks about where certain things start and others end, as well as filling in the gaps between distant data points. I plotted these points as I went along, and soon began to see that a pattern was emerging that even though they fell in vicinity of the previous data, they were offset higher for the RPM readings, higher for some sets and lower for other sets, creating nominally parallel curves next to those from the plot of two days prior. The increased voltage of the batteries on the output side apparently has shifted the plot. In the following chart, these new data points are circled.

Image:Ohms v Amps v RPM SDA Bedini SG Exp10 701.gif

Another thing I observed in this process is that the RPM readings at the high resistance region from 600 to 980 ohms take a very long time to stabilize -- e.g. half an hour to an hour, and I was too tired to complete that set (3:30 am), so that will have to wait to another time. The line drawn on the previous chart is a guess at best.

Looking to the Next Experiment

The above chart is quite illegible, but down on the output amps curves at 125 ohms, 175 ohms, and 250 ohms positions, you will see that I've drawn little arrow marks, with "Battery 9, Battery 10, and Battery 11) next to them.

The idea here is that at each of these positions the output current was 0.04 amps, but each of these positions derives from a different curve, with very different characteristics. Traditional electronics will predict that three batteries being charged at nominally the same current should charge at nominally the same rate. However, what is going on on the input side and wheel rotation side is very different from one position to the next.

At 125 ohms, the rpms are up at around 170, while they are down at about 118 at 175 ohms, and 100 at 250 ohms. Meanwhile, at 125 ohms, the input current is around 0.31 amps, while at 175 ohms it is at 0.2 ohms, and at 250 ohms it is at 0.16 ohms. The input-output efficiency ratio at 125 ohms is about 13%. At 175 ohms, it is about 20%, and at 250 ohms, it is up to 23%.

Batteries 9, 10, and 11 are virgin, fresh from the manufacturer. So this test will be about seeing what the Bedini circuit does to brand new batteries at these three very different positions which all give the same output current in traditional electrical terms. I need to condition these three batteries for my pending rotation experiment, so I might as well have fun doing it, right?

For input, I'm not sure whether to use one battery with a trickle charger keeping it at a fairly constant voltage, or to use the batteries I've been supercharging. If I go with the trickle charger, my input is going to be more consistent, and thus my results more scientifically valid. However, if I use two batteries in parallel for the input for one of the new batteries on output, then I will be able to get an input-output current and voltage mapping, which may be more helpful in determining what is happening at these three locations. Without the equipment on hand to chart the input from the trickle charger, all I will be able to map is the rate of charge of the batteries on the output end. For that reason, I think I'll go with the two batteries in parallel on the input. However, I don't yet know what that is going to do to the curve I have so methodically plotted. However, neither do I know what having just one battery on the output end will do to that plot, so either way, I'm going to have to do something to re-find those 0.04 amps positions. I think I'll take a potentiometer to begin close and then hone in on 0.0400 amps out. I'm expecting a new multimeter tomorrow that will have three significant digits to the right of the decimal point for amps and volts. That will help.


My wheel is a 22" aluminum rim from a mountain bike. It has 16 ceramic 5's equally spaced around the perimeter.

At the outset of the experiment, I measured the resistances in my transistor. B to E was 5.67 k ohms. B to C was 5.62 k ohms. A new one measured at 5.48 and 5.39, respectively. I kept the old one on.

For resistance, I'm not using a potentiometer this time, to make sure the setting is not changing from bumping. Also, the potentiometer tends to slip, especially on the lower resistances. I'm using hard resistors from Radio Shack in series and parallel to get the various resistances. (10, 47, 100, 220, etc.)

I'm still using the 6V LC-R064R2P 6V Panasonic batteries, 4.2Ah/20h. During this data collection, I do not have the input battery on trickle charge. I have seven batteries on the output in parallel.

I'm visually counting 100 revolutions, and using a stop watch to time how long it takes for 100 revolutions. My rpm readings are usually within 10/100ths of a second. I am usually taking two rpm readings for each data point.

I have my two multimeters set to read input and output current.

The purpose of the test is to find the optimum setting where I am getting the most current out for the least current in.

When I did the ohms per amps test a couple of weeks ago, I saw some unusual features that I was hoping to pin down. Also, I hadn't taken output amps readings on the lower ohms settings.

Once in a while, I re-do an earlier point to see how reproducible the results are, and I'm finding them to be very close to the same. Any differences are going to be because of the input battery gradually dropping in voltage over time during this procedure.

See also

Directory:Bedini SG:Replications:Jim:Data:Exp3 using a smaller wheel of much higher rpm.

Directory:Bedini SG:Replications:PES:Sterling Allan

Directory:Bedini SG:Replications:PES:Sterling Allan

Directory:Bedini SG

Directory:Bedini SG:Materials | Directory:Bedini SG:Schematic | Directory:Bedini SG:Assembly Instructions | Directory:Bedini SG:Data

Directory:Bedini SG:Replications

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