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Talk:Directory:Plasma Energy Controls' Plasma Expansion Motor
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Plasma Expansion Motor Could Revolutionize Renewable Industry - Nobel (inert) gas engine patterned after the Papp Engine, would cost 1/3 what a comparable output engine would cost, while its fuel would cost a few dollars per month -- negligible; totally revolutionizing the renewable industry. Six test engines expected to be completed soon. (PESWiki; Dec. 26, 2008)
"Before accepting John Rohner and Haik's word as gospel, I would recommend that those interested apply a little logic and reasoning to all that they say. As a real graduate engineer and developer of this engine, I will provide a couple of "for instances" to get you started using a couple of excerpts for their web-sites." (Bob Rohner)
AND it creates no discernible heat. The small heat rise is one of the points that traditional physicists jump on to say it "can not" work. They did this to "Cold fusion" too. They know that according to the conservation of energy theory, no energy can be provided without a direct proportion of heat. The nice part is that means there is no coolant or radiator either. The truth is that there is heat generated, 5 times the sun's heat but the duration is so short it never gets a chance to build up. BUT this is the reason the motor is limited to 2800 RPM as above that it gets too warm in the cylinder to work efficiently. See it just gets simpler and simpler.
Let's think about this. First remember that there is no exhaust whatsoever to vent the heat. So according to John Rohner and Haik, if the engine turns over two thousand eight hundred times in a minute, excessive heat will be generated. With no vent and very limited transfer there is no difference in heat build between 2800 cycles in one minute and 1400 cycles in two minutes or 700 cycles in four minutes. Try it. Your insulated home oven with no intake or exhaust will heat up to a set temperature irregardless of the element size varying only in the time needed to do so. If you apply this simple logic to the statements above it should be obvious that Dr. Johns flash of knowledge has to be seriously flawed. Further, if this is flawed, the whole simulation has to be flawed.
- What Can It Do?
The original old test engine appeared to be torque limited to around 800 ft-lbs in the tests irregardless of rotational speed. So that engine generated approximately 100 HP, this motor is only 120 Cu In., BUT it also provides this power at 500 RPM or 2400 RPM, flat, no peaks. The real maximum has never been completely tested, due to variants available in Motor design and gas mixture, but the principle should provide a scalable ratio of area to power. This is not fantasy but taken from what we know now from simulations and the OLD motor, it could be better.
Engineers, do you find it interesting that John Rohner and Dr. Haik Biglari have found a way to generate the same power at the same torque no matter what rpm? Think about it!! You need to question their abilities and certainly their simulation results if this is their understanding of power.
John and Haik now claim to have the Papp engine operational or is this just more smoke and mirrors??
Our Test and first OEM motor have exactly the same bore and stroke as the old "certified" running engine had. So we expect as much, or more, power production as that one. We actually produce more power than the original motor but more test have to be made before we have an optimum gas mixture and ECS program. Our Reaction chamber is a key element in the motors operation. Suddenly, their vaunted provisional patents are apparently incorrect or incomplete. From our tests we do not believe, as Papp did that cross coupling is needed and will soon be testing a single cylinder version for smaller tasks. A quick look at the Papp motor mechanical design with it's radio active elements etc will show that we do not use such radio active components as this old engine did.
Questions to have answered by John Rohner
1) John Rohner lists himself on your site as well as all of his own, as Dr. John Rohner, PhD (since removed). On his resume he lists himself as having a BS and MS in EE from MIT class of 1962. MIT has never heard of him. So far we can't find where he's even a college graduate. Are we are to believe then that he is a programmer who became a world class physicist in just six months, without any formal training?
2) John Rohner and Haik Biglari references direct involvement and research interests by at least two universities, the DOD, the DOE, and the US Navy. They mention that PlasmicERG has two direct government grants. They claim the participation of research labs in the Fusion, Fission and Plasma fields. Can they name some names? Can they verify all or any of this information?
3) John Rohner and Haik Biglari make comparisons between their simulated engine system and the actual operational engines built by John's brothers. Since the Papp patents were both misleading and incomplete and they claim to have learned nothing from the technology taken from Bob and Tom, can they explain how they were able make these comparisons? Can they explain how his proposed prototype magically turned out to be identical in bore, stroke, and power output to the original Rohner engine?
4) John Rohner and Haik Biglari displays and references numerous photos and videos on their many sites that are actually copyrighted images of Bob and Tom's work. Additionally, they do their best to make it appear as though this is their workmanship and toil. Do they have nothing of their own to display? Are they scamming others to fund what they don't have?
5) John Rohner and Haik Biglari spend thousands of words without even a vague explanation of their system. Can we see something,anything? Can we see just a portion of one of their great simulations? Can they show us how they calculated the life and power output of their engine?
6) John Rohner and Haik Biglari rant and rave about their patent pending. What they have is a provisional patent application filed on November 19th, which anybody can buy on the web for $110 dollars. It takes less than a hour to file one of these. No claims are necessary and the content is never even viewed by the patent office. For all we know it could be about a windup toy. This should be a world class patent, ask them to name the patent firm they used?
7) It appears that they have presented no compelling evidence of their achievements whatsoever (except the videos of someone else's work). If they fake their resume as it appears that they have, (a serious offense when money's involved) why should investors not believe they would fake everything else if there's money to be made. Why would or should an investor be willing to fork over hundreds of thousands of dollars on just their undocumented say so?
It should be noted that John has raced through all 250 of his web pages and removed the Doctor and PHD from his name. Unfortunately he cannot do the same with the resume's he has submitted." (Bob Rohner)
Q&A from John Rohner
In response to some questions from Sterling D. Allan, on Dec. 15, 2008, John Rohner wrote:
- How does the technology work (overview)?
A special mixture of gases, some containing hydrogen others helium or other things, is placed within a hermetically sealed Chamber with a piston as one side. The gases are Ionized and converted to a plasma.
The plasma expands and pushes the piston down. The reactant stops and the plasma collapses, actually creating a partial vacuum. The piston returns to TDC to do it again. A 2 Cycle motor.
That's the simple answer anything more, now, requires a license. Sorry but business is Business.
- Where are you in the process of implementing it commercially?
We are actively looking for investment partners and licensees to make motors. But not in a huge hurry, as we have real motors to get completed, to research and running, and the process of defining the process boundaries defined. As my Fusion research friends say it is a NEW science.
- What kind of data have you accumulated?
At the moment we have had several models ot the process running on Computers. We even modeled the old Papp motor and found it also worked but in today's technology was very limited in scope also potentially lethal..
- Independently tested?
We are actually building 5 test motors for several locations by various research groups. The base reason for this is to develop the process to pass the technology to a manufacturer in the best and most efficient way. And of course try many things somewhere there will be a cert run. But probably not for 3 or 4 months.
- What price point do you expect to start out at in terms of cents/kw-h?
Well it is a guess since we will not be setting this. But pretty low, probably less than half that of a internal combustion engine new. It is hard tosay, once these get into mass production what this number will be.
- How much might this price change in the next 5 years?
See Above. Making 1000 motors a month is vastly different than 1 million a month. Also it will depend on the size and type of motor.
- How does your technology compare to others like it out there?
Well the only one out there is the old Public Domain Papp style. It is highly inefficient and very hard to control, considering the last controller made for a Papp motor was over 20 years ago and we hold the Controller patent, pending, for this type engine. Maybe the people trying to make the old Papp technology work can figure it out. That will be just fine since we own that technology.
- What are its strengths?
Strengths are simplicity, inexpensive and reliable and NON POLLUTING Air or Noise.
In our analysis we know that after a 3 year continuous run, depending on gas mixture, the motor will have to be exchanged or cleaned. But that still beats the internal combustion engine by a mile.
- How might someone invest in the company?
Send an email to get a phone number and then Call up and have a talk. But be warned we have no interest in anyone losing money. If you want that there are some "historically" good places that will take it. We also expect some interaction and accountability. Our taget is NOW not five years from now.
We are specifically looking for people with "franchising" experience since we plan to license the technology.
We want, for investors, people with big smiles and good accounting. People that are not afraid to make a few billion bucks. AND people that like the idea of saving this good earth from pollution and love being free from foreign oil. OH and they must also be smart and enjoy life and enjoy people whose ethics don't require paper.
If a mans word is not good then no amount of paper will be either. kinda old fashioned But thats life.
John Rohner Follow-up
- John Rohner wrote on Dec. 16, 2008;
If you know the patent process you know that now we are going through a peer review of the points to verify their validity. The DOE and DOD are both pushing this process. I am working with research labs in the Fusion, Fission and Plasma fields and some of my associates are involved in the peer review. They are adapting some of the process as tests in their technologies. We actually may have created a new field of study as we learn to use the process as it is a crossover not considered before. That plus the fact that we want to "jump start" the technology by licensing it to engine manufacturers to get them to production fast, limits what I can talk about.
You mentioned Klosterman's patent, which cost 3.5 million bucks that was supposed to go toward the dev of the Papp motor. We did have a student model it and it failed. But the Papp would have failed also had we not found the errors in his math and descriptions, both in the engine and the "Rube Goldberg" Gas Machine. You may have missed that but it actually has vacuum tubes, triodes, in the design. My apologies to Rube but lets face it if you drew it out it was strikingly familiar. I am sure there are errors in the Klosterman as well, since things change as you get past the application. Also it is getting old, nearly 5 years and no physical entity has ever been certified to the USPTO.
Had it not been for my brothers, Bob and Tom, the Papp would have never been certified either. Joe was making the best of something he did not understand and was designing Head replacements to bolt on someone else's motor. His control system was like his gas maker, clumsy. Bob created a fairly modern design motor for the time and what Papp would bother to tell him. Tom did a pretty modern, for the time, controller. These two together were why that motor ever got certified. That plus the fact that Joe needed more money to spend on himself and not pay taxes on. Unfortunately, the evolution of the design and Idea stopped there over 20 years ago.
I keep reading about all the people that said they did something and did only one thing, suck up money. You mentioned Clean Energy (CEI) and it has been almost as good as Saboni at raising money to spend on themselves. In all the last 20 years no one has seriously tried to get the engine even back to it's running state. But they all made large salaries for themselves and did do some research into very limited things. They have also stayed away from REAL Science.
I am proud to say that on the day I thought I understood the process I called friends in the Fusion and Fission Research labs to ask what they thought. Almost to a man they got excited. So excited that we started modeling the process and found it worked. Then we backed the process to the old Papp engine and found it worked there too. Then we started considering fuel, Gas mixtures. We discovered that some good candidates were actually in use in other palces. We have registered some 14 of these, so far, as "company secret" copyrights. At the point of the first simulation working we started writing the patent documents. The "provisional was filed" and followed with real papers. This means that using modern science, and what we know from astro physics, we are very confident about a running motor in the very near future. The decision was made eo KISS it. Keep It Simple Stupid. So the entire excitation and catalyst section was redesigned and simulated.
Along with this I came to the realization that the motor could be simplified in another way so I designed a very versitile Electronic Control Unit (ECU) for it. The ECU makes life very simple but is also very flexible. It was designed to control any form, this one and others in labs, of motor that used plasma as a component. We have copyrighted this and also have a patent pending on it as well. It hjas three main functions. DC/DC generation, RF generation and timing, switching for components Coils etc., and it is fully programmable. Once this was done I looked at the fact that we may have a leak around the piston and what to do for it should it happen. I designed a auto fueler that is controlled by the ECU to refresh the in chamber mixture, thus the running time could be as much as 3 years and then only a simple canister replacement is needed, without stopping the motor. A great boon to the Home and business Generator Sets and the Truck drivers or Rail or marine motors.
At this moment the company (companies actually) to bring this all to reality are Incorporated in Iowa. Business plans are about complete and we are setting meetings with motor companies to license the technology, in the first year we will only do 8. Our first group of test motors should be ready for the labs mid February. We expect running test motors worst case April and running Licensee motors June. We want production Motors available by August 2009 and we will start licenseing the rest of the manufacturers then for their production mid 2010. That should be the replacement of the Internal combustion engine and petrolium or Biofuel needs except for existing engines as legacy.
Plasmerg inc. is the central unit and IP center, patents,licenses, royalties, consulting, new design, training etc are its task. Plasmic Control Inc is the manufacturer and developer of all ECUs for motors manufactured. Rohner Motor Inc is the sole current licensee of plasmerg. It will be involved with any Mechanical developments and it will manufacture OEM motors. That is, motors for any company that wishes to buy not make their engines.
All companies have board membership in PlasmERG. Two of the three companies in the Triad are ready one is open. We are looking for a mechanical engineer or designer to take control of the Rohner Motor name and production. It would be good if he had motor background but we will talk to anyone who wishes to tackle this company.
We also have shares of the company available for anyone that would like to invest. We do not want any investor who needs to lose money. We may do that the first year but after that it will not happen.
I did not see any news about this on your site. I would like to do a show with you maybe in January. By then the first motors will be real and testing started.
I can, if you wish, keep you abreast of things. I may even be a cadidate for your club..
Merry christmas. John
ps. Yes, Bob is my brother and he is still with CEI. And, no he does not have a license. So when the patents clear he will be treated as any other infringer. Business is business. He could have come in-house but chose not to.
42 Year Old Scams Don't Die, Only Unfortunate Spectators Do
--Penny Gruber 03:15, 27 December 2008 (PST)
This engine is represented as a closed system using noble gasses as working fluid, excited into a plasma state by high frequency RF. In other words, it converts high frequency RF electricity to mechanical power. Its direct competition is a conventional electric motor. Motors with over 96% efficiency have long been readily available. In order to be competitive as a prime mover only, the Rohner brothers device has to achieve similar or better efficiency at similar or lower cost. This they cannot do that because of basic thermodynamic and materials limitations. This does not even begin to address the Rohner brothers far more outrageous claims that the power source is low temperature fusion of noble gasses. In over a quarter century they have not produced any verifiable evidence that supports their wild claims.
The Rohner brothers involvement with the Josef Papp scam engine goes back to the early 1980s. Josef Papp's achievements include making phony claims to construction of a 400MPH jet powered submarine, and actually killing one of his spectators back in 1966. 42 years later, Josef Papp's engine including with the help of the Rohner brothers has done little else than evaporate millions of investor dollars. Now the Rohner brothers ask investors to help them continue Papp's legacy.
Anyone considering investing in the Rohner brothers would be wise to first demand independent validation of their claims by a qualified and neutral third party lab such as EarthTech. It is a safe bet that the Rohner brothers will refuse. Caveat Emptor.
Reply to Gruber
I suggest you do some research. The engine was certified independently to verify the patent producing 107hp for over an hour.
If Fenyman had seen this even he would have had to change his position. He would have known there was only one explanation. Perhaps we could hear your theory about how this little two cylinder engine was able to produce so much power for so long. As far as killing spectators, Fenyman and Cal were found at fault, not Papp. Lock out the carb on any engine and it will wind up until it explodes.
Everyone wants to know how. Some things just work and we will probably never know why. Here's my offer. When you can explain to me why a magnet sticks to the refrigerator, then I will feel obligated to explain in detail how this process works.
There is absolutely no where that we claim it to be a thermodynamic process. In fact,I make a point of stating just the opposite on my website http://www.rohnermachine.com.
One more thing Bob and Tom Rohner have never accepted one penny from anyone. Just two people besides Papp built these engines and made them run, Bob and Tom Rohner. You are calling one of them (me-Bob Rohner) a fraud and scam artist. Prove it. Find one person who gave us anything. It's people like you who are the genuine frauds in this life for making up stories when you don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about.
[p.s.] John Rohner was never involved with Papp or his engine. He was involved with us for a short time before he and his sidekick Haik copied our technology and started setting up their sites and money schemes. What he does is not our problem.
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