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Directory:Plasma Energy Controls' Plasma Expansion Motor

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NOTE: This page is presently in the middle of a controversy between brothers John and Bob Rohner who are quite rude to one another. Once we get some time we'll clean it up and move most of the controversy over to the discussion page. (Jan. 28, 2009)


Page first featured December 26, 2008

Bob Rohner's Test Engine -- is not part of the company Plasma Energy Controls.
Bob Rohner's Test Engine -- is not part of the company Plasma Energy Controls.

Please notice that the engine photo to the right being presented as the property and workmanship of the Plasmerg/Plasmic companies by John Rohner and Haik Biglari,owners, is in fact, one of the lab test engines built and owned by Bob Rohner.

This noble (inert) gas engine, with just five moving parts, would cost 1/3 what a regular engine of comparable output would cost. Meanwhile, its fuel would allegedly cost about $6 per year -- negligible. It's kind of like a Stirling engine -- a sealed system -- except that the expanding component is internal, and comes by way of a plasma form of inert, noble gasses, which are not consumed in the process, and which are environmentally benign anyway.

If this is proven out, it would totally revolutionizing the renewable industry, making most solar, wind, geothermal, and other forms of renewable energy obsolete because it would be so much more clean, reliable and affordable.

Known as the Rohner "Plasmic Transmisive Process" Engine, this is essentially a 3rd generation Papp engine -- a technology with a deep legend base that has stirred the imagination of many.

John Rohner and Haik Biglari think they have figured out how it works, and have come up with improvements that they think will make the engine commercially viable. They say they have interested a number of universities and engine corporations with the computer modeling the have done. The first six test engines are expected to be completed next month (January '08). They will be trying various gas combinations.

John Rohner says that two of the universities involved plan to begin teaching this as a new science in the semester or quarter following successful demonstration of the technology.

These test engines purportedly will output 120 HP, running on two cylinders, 120 cubic inches total displacement. Rohner thinks that the life expectancy of such an engine would be in the range of 500k to 800,000 miles.

Three companies have been created to handle various facets of this technology, and all are now "ready to go." Rohner Motor Inc. will handle the motor manufacturing. Plasmic Controls Inc. will handle the motor control units. Plasmerg will handle licensing and patents. John Rohner says 1/2 of each company is available in stock.

Others who have been in the Papp / noble gas engine industry for a long time have expressed skepticism about the Rohner's claims, but would be glad to see someone actually accomplish the things the Rohners say they will be able to do. The industry has a long and somewhat bloody history.

Contents

About

"Before accepting John Rohner and Haik's word as gospel, I would recommend that those interested apply a little logic and reasoning to all that they say. As a real graduate engineer and developer of this engine, I will provide a couple of "for instances" to get you started using a couple of excerpts for their web-sites." (Bob Rohner)


AND it creates no discernible heat. The small heat rise is one of the points that traditional physicists jump on to say it "can not" work. They did this to "Cold fusion" too. They know that according to the conservation of energy theory, no energy can be provided without a direct proportion of heat. The nice part is that means there is no coolant or radiator either. The truth is that there is heat generated, 5 times the sun's heat but the duration is so short it never gets a chance to build up. BUT this is the reason the motor is limited to 2800 RPM as above that it gets too warm in the cylinder to work efficiently. See it just gets simpler and simpler.

Let's think about this. First remember that there is no exhaust whatsoever to vent the heat. So according to John Rohner and Haik, if the engine turns over two thousand eight hundred times in a minute, excessive heat will be generated. With no vent and very limited transfer there is no difference in heat build between 2800 cycles in one minute and 1400 cycles in two minutes or 700 cycles in four minutes. Try it. Your insulated home oven with no intake or exhaust will heat up to a set temperature irregardless of the element size varying only in the time needed to do so. If you apply this simple logic to the statements above it should be obvious that Dr. Johns flash of knowledge has to be seriously flawed. Further, if this is flawed, the whole simulation has to be flawed.


What Can It Do?

The original old test engine appeared to be torque limited to around 800 ft-lbs in the tests irregardless of rotational speed. So that engine generated approximately 100 HP, this motor is only 120 Cu In., BUT it also provides this power at 500 RPM or 2400 RPM, flat, no peaks. The real maximum has never been completely tested, due to variants available in Motor design and gas mixture, but the principle should provide a scalable ratio of area to power. This is not fantasy but taken from what we know now from simulations and the OLD motor, it could be better.

Engineers, do you find it interesting that John Rohner and Dr. Haik Biglari have found a way to generate the same power at the same torque no matter what rpm? Think about it!! You need to question their abilities and certainly their simulation results if this is their understanding of power.


Official Websites for John Rohner and Dr. Haik Biglari

Bob and Tom Rohner's Websites

These sites both work

Interviews

How it Works

Image:Rohner block half plus internal 200.gif


"A hermeticly sealed gas chamber is filled with a charge of a relatively inexpensive, abundant, and harmless special inert gas. This gas is subjected to a controlled Excitement, to create a powerful Plasmic Transmisive Process expansion, now patented by PlasmERG, reversal, of the Process causes a contraction, recombination, leaving the gases ready to cycle again."
"This engine does not require any oxygen to operate nor does it expel anything. That makes it virtually atmospheric pollutant free. There is oil to lube the bearings and some very minut amount of that could become gaseous so it is not perfect and it creates no discernible heat. The small heat rise is one of the points that traditional physicists jump on to say it "can not" work. They did this to "Cold fusion" too. They know that according to the conservation of energy theory, no energy can be provided without a direct proportion of heat."

22" wide, 10" long, 8" tall. Put out around 135 HP (between 120 - 150 HP, depending on gas mixture). Licensing the technology. 1 kW; 5 moving parts, no valves, no cam shafts. Bearings are roller bearings. About 1/3 cost; up time over 1 million MTBS. Will require servicing, at end of fifth cycle ~ 4 years.

One of Bob Rohner's test engines.
One of Bob Rohner's test engines.

An anonymous PES Wiki contributor wrote:

"It is an internal combustion (IC) engine that has no intake and no exhaust ports, or even a radiator. The engine’s primary input fuel is electrical power to run the ignition electronics, which pulse a mixture of noble gases to help form charged plasma. The motor has a hermetically sealed cylinder & piston assembly containing a noble gas mixture of helium, neon, argon, krypton, and xenon. These gases get preconditioned and then subjected to precise controlled electronic, magnetic and mechanical manipulation and radiation effects to create a powerful expansion and contraction effect. Multiple electrodes of complex design produce what is believed to be a very hot electric discharge plasma in the noble gas mixture that reaches unusual conditions liberating energy from some yet unknown source that is about 100 times greater than the energy put into the electrodes. Roughly 1kW is needed to run the motor’s electronic controls and over 100 hp comes out. Two- and four-cylinder engines were built over the years from 1968 until Joseph Papp died of colon cancer in 1989. Replication the original engine is difficult without the understanding of the inner workings of the entire engine and gas mixture and ignition timing. Moreover, a 2-stroke design vs. 4-stroke design has been the favored optimal configuration. There is only a two stroke - four stroke is impossible. - BR

Videos

Note
These videos which are claimed to be from Rohner Motor are in fact videos created by Bob Rohner which show the history of Bob and Tom's involvement with Papp and the engines built by them. John Rohner and Haik Biglari were in no way involved with the design, operation, or testing of these engines.

(4.25 Minutes)

  • Papp Gas Plasma Engine - This dyno video shows Bob's engine putting out over 100hp. A DC motor to drive this would weigh 3/4 of a ton and need #000 wires.

That's also Bob Rohner's certified AW Dyno it is connected to. (YouTube; June 26, 2008)

- - - -


(1 hour 11 Minutes)

  • Jim Sabori's Papp Engine A two-cycle engine demonstrates power output up to 500 HP on a dynamometer; and a one-cycle engine with Plexiglas cylinder shows ignition of noble gas in vacuum process, which current physics says is impossible. (Google Video; March 15, 2006)

Once again, people don't know what they are seeing. The dyno is not reading 500 horsepower, it's reading 11 horsepower at 500 ft-lbs of torque at about 115 rpm. In addition you should note that the engine putting out this low speed power is the one built by Bob and Tom Rohner and the video is just a copy of our work. Regarding the one-cylinder, the credit should go to a Mr. Herb Gambol an associate of Bob Rohner's for discovering this reaction. It should be noted that the noble gas is not in a vacuum at all since by being there, it is not a vacuum. Also note that "ignition" is a very poor choice of words, since it implies an explosion requiring oxygen of which there is none. If people are to ever understand the Papp engine and believe in its abilities, it is important to keep the terms straight. Above, John Rohner says its like a sterling engine, it however, has nothing in common with this type of motor. (Bob Rohner)

Costs

  • Engine projected to cost 1/3 of an engine of comparable output.
  • Fuel costs: ~$6/year.

Advantages

  • Inert gas engine; plasma expansion motor.
  • No combustible fuels used.

Applications

Not going to build motors for anything other than OEM; going to license to companies that make motors.

Independent Testing

  • Prototypes; 5 to be built, January 2009.

Patents

Patented electronic conroller (ECU), start with 9-12 V.

Profiles

Company: Plasmic Energy Controls, Inc.

Two government grants.

Inventor: Joseph Papp

Initially, Joseph Papp, then the brothers Bob, Tom and John Rohner.

Coverage

In the News

  • Featured: Papp engine / Plasma >
    Plasma Expansion Motor Could Revolutionize Renewable Industry - Nobel (inert) gas engine patterned after the Papp Engine, would cost 1/3 what a comparable output engine would cost, while its fuel would cost about $6 per year -- negligible; totally revolutionizing the renewable industry. Six test engines expected to be completed in Jan. '08. (PESWiki; Dec. 26, 2008)

One last time we see Doctor John and Haik's company name plastered onto a photo of Bob's engine and once again we note that this is fraud

Comments

See Discussion page

Directories

Contact


John Rohner, Vice President
Rohner Motor Inc.
619 Elm Street
West Liberty, IA. 52776
Phone (Cell) 319-331-9395


E-Mail: jprohner@plasmerg.com


Dr. Haik Biglari, P.E.
Sr. Director of Engineering
Fairchild Controls
540 Highland Street
Frederick, MD 21701
Phone: 301-228-3538
E-Mail: hbiglari@simomatics.com

See also

- Other Directory listings • Latest • A-I • J-R • S-Z • Tree • News
- PESWiki home page

Engines Joseph Papp Inventors

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